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| Harry Greenberger in 2001 at Darwin Day. |
NOSHA board member and Humanist Advocate reporter Marty Bankson presents a thoughtful interview with Harry Greenberger, president emeritus of NOSHA.
Born Free in Okeechobee
When the first question came up during my discussion with
Harry Greenberger, a quotation came to mind: “Everyone starts out being an
atheist.” It turns out to be the words of the sage, but sardonic curmudgeon-commentator,
Andy Rooney who appeared regularly on CBS's "60 Minutes". Harry has earned the
“sage” moniker, stating that he was always an atheist, in but contrast to
Rooney’s crabby presentation of wisdom, the octogenarian Greenberger’s bonhomie
and easy demeanor is as smooth as the Southern gentry of days past.
Humanist Advocate (HA): You related to me earlier that you were Jewish. Can you
tell me a little about your childhood. e. g.— did you grow up in a strict
religious home, or were your parents secular? Did you ever experience any overt
or covert acts of prejudice because of your Jewish origins?
Harry Greenberger (HG): I lived in Okeechobee,
Florida, which is a very small town in south Florida with my two older brothers, a sister, and
parents, who had moved there from New York City,
by way of Amarillo, Texas. There were from time to time maybe
three Jewish families, but there was never a temple or synagogue where I grew
up. My father had become a Christian Scientist, and the town was so small there
were no Christian Science churches either. I’m convinced my mother was an atheist,
but the subject never came up. We didn’t even talk about it. So I didn’t get
any indoctrination as a Jew or Christian Scientist.
***
There were four children, and my parents didn’t try to force things, except by
example. And by example I mean, as people in the South, they treated black
people very well and were very liberal. My mother and father ran a little store
in Okeechobee, and the children were raised by a black maid. I had no idea
there were any problems between the races, except that blacks lived in one part
of town and we lived in another. You asked earlier if I ever experienced any
prejudice for being Jewish and we did not. No one was aware of those religious
differences—we were just accepted as a part of the community. In school, we would
recite the Lord’s Prayer every day, did readings from the New Testament, but I
didn’t see anything to it, and we just did it. I was in a Christmas pageant
play, and played the role of one of the wise men. But I didn’t know I shouldn’t
have been doing that as a Jew.
Okeechobee High School, Class of ’44 Valedictorian, Harry
then received a Bachelor’s degree, with Honors from the University of Florida,
passed the Florida CPA examination and moved on to Florida State University,
where he was an accounting professor’s assistant and earned a master’s degree
in psychology. Soon after, he and a friend decided to move to New Orleans. After a career in accounting and
a partner in the ownership of a French Quarter art gallery, Harry was ready to
get involved with a group that had like-minded secular, non-theistic opinions.
Getting Started
“So, the man sitting next to me said, ‘How about this man?’
pointing to me.’”
HA: Did you consider yourself a little courageous or at
least adventurous for getting involved with an atheist organization given the
preponderance of Catholic influence in the city?
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Harry models an early NOSHA T-shirt,
circa 2003. |
HG: When the small group started NOSHA, I was retired by
then. If not, I might not have been able to go public because it could
influence people I worked with and also customers of our business. I was
retired, so I didn’t have that restriction. When the article appeared [about
the new group] in the Times-Picayune,
which was a lengthy article about me and our atheism, I had friends who said
“You’re going to be in trouble. People are going to break windows in your house
and spray paint your car”. I had no problem, not a single instance, ugly phone
calls, any problem. I think maybe people of New Orleans have enough of a varied
background that they can accept people who are different.
HA: Tell me something about the early days, some of the
background of getting started up.
HG: Many years ago I
got a notice that a group was forming an American Atheists group. It was kind of
a small, ragtag group and I decided it was going nowhere; and it didn’t. Some
years later, there was a meeting at the Unitarian Universalist Church, and in
this case there were two people who came in from the Council for Secular
Humanism—I think that’s where they were from—and talked about setting up a
group. I had the feeling at the time that that group was not going to develop
either. And it hung around a little while and went by the wayside.
My third invitation to become a part of a secular group was
the one at which NOSHA was formed. There was a meeting of about a dozen people
at a bookstore in Metairie and I was impressed
that these people were of a good background and this would be a successful
group. None of us knew each other. The woman who had arranged for this had contacted
the Council for Secular Humanism to ask if there was a local branch, and they
told her there was not, but that she could start one. She said she did not want
to be the president; but she wanted a place where her young children could go
because they wouldn’t be going to church or Sunday School; but she had to keep
a low profile to avoid professional or social repercussions.
She had all the materials that showed how you set up an
organization, and she said “...this is how you set up an organization—the first
thing you do is elect a President.” So the man sitting next to me said “How
about this man?” pointing to me. And I said to them “If anyone else would like
to do it, please take it; if not, I’ll do it”
I felt like this group really had a chance for survival,
because of what I perceived as the quality of the members. Three of those on
the Board of Directors were college professors, Dave Schultz being one who is
still with us on the board. I was never one of those “in-your-face” atheists,
and I think we had a refined group on the board of directors.
Organization Man
HA: Had you any experience setting up a non-profit
organization or was your career work helpful?
HG: Absolutely. At that meeting, we talked about getting
organized, and I told them that I was a CPA, and had some experience in
organization. As one of the owners of Nahan Art Gallery on Royal Street, I had
called for a meeting of the Royal Street merchants to set up an organization to
be called the Royal Street Association, because we had top quality art
galleries, antiques stores, first class restaurants on the street that I
thought we would benefit from being an organized entity. I called for a meeting
to start the association. We had another store on Chartres Street, and when the Chartres Street
people saw what we were doing they formed the Chartres Street Association and I
served on their Board of Directors. I was the President of the Royal Street organization
as well.
Come World’s Fair time, streets were under construction and
killing business. Royal, Chartres,
and Bourbon Street
groups met with the Mayor and his aides to discuss problems, and a woman said “…what we need is a French Quarter Business
Association and Harry Greenberger should be the president.” I became the
President of another new organization. It was because of my presidencies that I
got to know everybody on the New Orleans City Council, because we would go there with
problems and complaints, and they all knew me.
Also, I represented our company at the Chamber of Commerce, and I was really
pissed off because they just ignored the French Quarter. I arranged to talk at
the meeting of their board and made the point that needed to pay more attention
to the FQ because of the tourist business it brought. So they set up a French
Quarter committee and made me the chairman, so that’s another one that I had to
put together.
HA: You have given a secular invocation at the start of
eight City Council meetings. Was it your familiarity with the council members
that helped you to get your foot in door to do this?
HG: Councilman Marlin Gusman, and I do not remember what
brought it on, approached me with the proposal that if I wished to give a
secular invocation at a meeting, he would set it up for me.
And I did. That is how I got to know the city council’s
chaplain, who usually gave the invocation. After a few months or year passed
and I called him and said I would like to do another one. Since he found out I
was not insulting religious people, I was just doing my thing, and any time I wanted
to do one, I would just call him and he would fit me into the agenda.
HA: You also write the material and host a variety of guests
from many walks of life on “The Humanist Perspective”, a locally produced cable TV program.
How long have you done this, and did the idea for that come after NOSHA got off
and running?
HG: My guess is that I have hosted the show for about 15
years. The tapes made prior to Katrina were lost in the flood. I’m doing two
shows a month now; at one time I was doing more than two shows a month.
The way I got involved in the program was American Atheists was
looking for people who would deliver their tapes to public access TV stations
and sponsor them locally. I didn’t even know there was a public TV access
station, but said I would do it. They would deliver the tapes to me and I would
take them to the station to air them. When I went to do that the first time, I
found out you had to be a resident of the parish or a member of a non-profit
based within it. I also found out they were producing shows there, and I asked
what you had to do to have a show. They gave me an application, and for an annual fee, you could do a show. That was part of the deal Cox Cable agreed
to be awarded the monopoly cable TV provider in Orleans Parish—they had to put
up a million dollars a year for public access programming between 4 and 6
channels in their lineup.
HA: Did you experience much frustration finding people to
interview or scheduling appearances and keeping on schedule?
HG: Generally, this whole thing over the years has operated
very smoothly. Sometimes I get a little anxious that I don’t have commitments
from two people, because I do two interviews at the same session. But I always
end up with two guests, and I cannot remember a time when someone didn’t show
up. I rarely have a problem with thinking we will run out of things to say to fill
the time. It usually goes so smoothly. I don’t know how many times I said to my
guests “A half hour goes by fast, doesn’t it?”
HA: You recently retired as President of NOSHA. Given your
age, is the end in sight for your work on this TV production?
HG: Let me put it this way…I stepped down from the presidency
of
NOSHA because I decided it was time for some new blood. I was a little tired
of that. I did not give up the show because I still got some pleasure out of
it. Do I see an end to it? Yes, because I am getting very old. I haven’t lost my
mental capacity, but I can’t remember anything. But when I gave up the presidency,
there was more than one person who was qualified to step into that position.
But I don’t know anyone in NOSHA now who would take over that show if I said I
was ready to give it up, and of course I’ll have to give it up because of age.
But I won’t have to give it up for lack of guests to interview.
Early on, I got most of my guests from my contacts having
been in public life, but that can’t go on forever. Now I get most of my guests
from stories I read in the newspaper. But in fact, if I knew someone in NOSHA
whom I thought would really like to do the show and was capable, I might be
ready to turn it over, but I don’t see anyone who has shown any interest. [NOSHA Board Vice-President Jim Dugan has hosted several of episodes over the past few years when Harry was not available.]
HA: But it needs to continue…
When it came on, it appeared twice a week, at 2:30pm and 2:30am on the
weekends. And originally, that’s all that I thought it was. But I knew we had
someone who was converting our tapes to go on
YouTube. I’m not much of a tech
or a computer person, but found out when you go to YouTube to our link, it also
shows how many people have watched. I couldn’t believe the number of people who
had watched. For instance, the professor of economics at Loyola who was an Ayn
Rand fan…I can’t remember…I think it was 4,000 views. I couldn’t believe how
many people were watching my shows on YouTube! They can also been seen on Vimeo
and on
our website.
Harry the Humanist
“Never doubt that a
small group of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it is the only
thing that ever has.”—a quotation from Margaret Mead—and all that was
printed on a letter-size sheet of paper Harry handed me.
HA: Strictly considered, atheism, or other brands of
skepticism would not seem to be necessarily linked to any political ideology or
viewpoint. In Humanism, from which NOSHA takes its name, that point is not
quite so clear; and that some humanist principles are better represented in
certain political parties than others. What is your thinking on this?
HG: First, on the Wall of Separation. There are some
conservatives who say that say those words never appear in the Constitution.
Thomas Jefferson, who wrote most of it, made it very clear that the First
Amendment intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state. I
think that is going to stand, no matter what. I still say we [non-theists] are
the most maligned minority in this country. Polls show that we are the least
likely out of any groups to be elected for office. I heard some commentator
refer to Bernie Sanders as an atheist. Wouldn’t it be something if an atheist
Jew was elected President?
I tell you what concerns the hell out of me: the Supreme Court.
The ultra-conservatives are not going to let Obama get a new member in there.
We’re okay if the Democrats win the Presidency, but if the Republicans win, we
are gone forever, because not only this spot will be filled, but in the coming
four years another one is going to die. Ginsburg would probably like to retire,
but she doesn’t want the wrong person put in there.
But going back to humanism: humanism, with the lower case
“h”, is not specific as upper-case Humanism, which is the philosophy of
humanism, and that philosophy says we are concerned with the welfare and the
living of full lives for ourselves and others without any reliance on the supernatural.
People ask me all the time about secular humanism—what it is. I tell them “secular”
means we are non-religious, but that just says what we are not, rather than
what we are. Humanism says what we are, and says that since we are not going to
have an afterlife and that this is the only life we are going to have we should
live it fully and rewardingly, getting the most out of it we can and allowing
others to do the same thing.
What I just told you has a lot to do with guests I’ve asked
to be on the TV show. I couldn’t have just spent all these years talking about
non-religion; how many guests can you have on that subject? Secular humanism
says to live life fully, get out of it what you can. That enables us to do things
that are worth taking a part in or observing—it contributes to the fullness of
our lives, which is why I talk to people who are in theater and all manner of
things, so long that this is a subject that can give some joy and pleasure and
satisfaction in our lives.
HA: Do you think the usefulness of organizations which are
founded on the principle of nontheism has passed its prime?
HG: No way. I think we are only in the beginning of it and
see nothing but expansion in the future. This country is becoming a whole lot
less religious. The young people…they don’t even talk about it. I was wondering
why we didn’t have more secular organizations at UNO, Delgado, and Tulane and I
was told that young people don’t even think about religion. That’s why the numbers
are going to change, because of the young people. For us older people, we are
trying to overcome the old discriminations and trying to make secularism more
acceptable. The young people don’t have that same outlook.
________________________________________
In addition to scheduling over a hundred speakers for
monthly NOSHA meetings during his time as President of NOSHA and interviewing
hundreds more on “The Humanist Perspective” television program, here are some other
noteworthy events, publications, and awards Harry has had a hand in:
2002—Interviewed by Elizabeth Mullener for the Times-Picayune
2005—Acknowledgement and photograph of the Mayoral
Proclamation of “Day of Reason” in New Orleans requested by members of NOSHA
published in Freedom from Religion Foundation publication, Freethought Today
2009—Recognition of New Orleans City
Council Proclamation of “Day of Reason”
in Free Mind. Both proclamations were proposed as alternatives to the
National Day of Prayer.
2012—Interviewed by Eric Nguyen of the Humanist News
Network, the weekly online publication of the American Humanist Association.
2012—Recipient of The Humanist Award of NOSHA. The award was
later given his name.
2013—Designated as President Emeritus of NOSHA
2014—Named to the Honor Roll of the Humanist Foundation, a
subsidiary of the American Humanist Association.
2014—Published an essay in Free Inquiry, the magazine of the Council of Secular Humanism, addressing
the theme “The Faith I Left Behind”. His essay, “Why I am Not a Believer,” was
one of several, out of the hundreds submitted, to be selected for publication
in the book The Faith I Left Behind.
